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E10 fuel
Feb 28, 2023 19:47:34 GMT
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Post by kickstart on Feb 28, 2023 19:47:34 GMT
I personally use e5 fuel especially esso supreme in my bikes but I know e5 for some can be a little harder to get , does anyone here use e10 and as it caused any problems for your bike your aware of ??
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willy3pigs
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Post by willy3pigs on Feb 28, 2023 20:29:47 GMT
I buy the E5 stuff from Tesco and remove the ethanol using the method in the attached vid, but using 25 litre containers, or to be more accurate I used to. Now I check how much ethanol is actually in it before I bother. The Tesco E5 used to be in the 3.5-4.5% range, but once the Ukraine business got under way I noticed it steadily dropped to less than 1%. and their E10 to around 5% Haven't bought any fuel for the bike yet this year, but will be interested to see what the present ethanol content is. www.youtube.com/watch?v=opPZD8-2fLk&ab_channel=BenHasselbring |
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E10 fuel
Mar 1, 2023 18:46:24 GMT
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Post by kickstart on Mar 1, 2023 18:46:24 GMT
I did’nt realise ethanol could be removed please forgive my ignorance I think I’m going to try and have a go on a small scale , should be interesting , once you’ve let the water/fuel stand over night is it easy to spot the difference in colour ??
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E10 fuel
Mar 1, 2023 18:59:16 GMT
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Post by andy1kenobe on Mar 1, 2023 18:59:16 GMT
I've heard those boat filter funnels work at getting the water out and looked at the Clarke's one but the reviews were mixed so didn't bother buying. I think it was only around a tenner back then too.
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willy3pigs
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Post by willy3pigs on Mar 1, 2023 19:16:22 GMT
I did’nt realise ethanol could be removed please forgive my ignorance I think I’m going to try and have a go on a small scale , should be interesting , once you’ve let the water/fuel stand over night is it easy to spot the difference in colour ?? The attached pics show my set up. I drilled two very close fitting holes in the cap of the container, one for the syphon tube which can be adjusted for depth by loosening the grub screw in the collar and sliding the tube to the desired depth. The second hole accommodates the blow tube for starting the syphon. I add Tesco food dye, red or blue are nice and easy to see to the water, this is not a necessity, you can shine a bright light from behind the container, and you can clearly see the difference between the two fluids, but the dye just makes things easier. I add 10% water, give it a good shake, and it separates out within minutes, but I leave it to settle for three or four hours. I set the syphon about 25mm above the water. Once this has been completed I pour the leftover mix into a smaller tall narrow container with a tap at the bottom that allows me to drain the water from the remaining fuel. If you don't use the food dye you'll notice the water ethanol mix looks like water with cooking oil in it.   |
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daveh
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E10 fuel
Mar 1, 2023 20:44:57 GMT
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Post by daveh on Mar 1, 2023 20:44:57 GMT
Does anyone have experience the additives available for neutralising the ethanol? Not sure how they work or if any good. I know D silvers sells some. Would be a lot less phaff if they work.
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Mar 3, 2023 11:49:41 GMT
I buy the E5 stuff from Tesco and remove the ethanol using the method in the attached vid, but using 25 litre containers, or to be more accurate I used to. Now I check how much ethanol is actually in it before I bother. The Tesco E5 used to be in the 3.5-4.5% range, but once the Ukraine business got under way I noticed it steadily dropped to less than 1%. and their E10 to around 5% Haven't bought any fuel for the bike yet this year, but will be interested to see what the present ethanol content is. www.youtube.com/watch?v=opPZD8-2fLk&ab_channel=BenHasselbringHow did you test the percentage? Did you do the water add and separation on a small sample and measure the increase in water? |
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willy3pigs
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Post by willy3pigs on Mar 3, 2023 14:16:53 GMT
That's right, tester bottles are available from the U.S. as in the attached pic, or you can buy a measuring cylinder.  |
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Mar 14, 2023 18:06:33 GMT
I have been looking into and thinking about this a bit.
What I can understand at present is that the ethanol attracts water (is that correct?), so adding water draws any water already in the ethanol to separate to the added water. So when this increased water is syphoned off you would be left with a Petrol/ethanol mix without water? Is that right or do you syphon of a mix of ethenol and water?
The Octane level drops if ethanol is removed by a few points I believe, so if you start with an E5 fuel which can be 99 octane this should be fine. E10 is a 95 Octane. Does anyone know what octane level of leaded petrol was in the early 80's when engine was designed?
What fuel do folk tend to use E5 or E10? Is 99 octane of E5 too high?
Any petrochemical heads on here, please share your wisdom!
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Post by buster on Mar 14, 2023 19:51:54 GMT
ethanol is water miscible, so the two can be mixed easily (used occasionally to increase the performance of turbos in high speed runs). the water is pretty good at finding the ethanol (with some vigorous shaking) and then holding onto it, so after a suitable period of settling the water and ethanol mix can be drawn off. you'll need a container with a tap at the very lowest point, better if its transparent. the problem with this is, as you said, you lose some octane. this can be a problem, I'd only remove ethanol from the highest octane fuel I could find and then add a decent octane booster to try and get it back. low octane can be a problem as it pushes engines ever closer to detonation (pinking, its not something you want in an engine) higher octane fuels are therefore safer to run on. can you have too much octane? short answer is probably no. I cant think of any reason high octane could be a problem. there are very specialist fuels out there (look up C16 blue gas) but it would be insane to run a road vehicle on the stuff. its mainly used in specialised pro stock dragsters that tend to run their compression in the high teens, the realistic limit for compression on pump fuel is about 12:1 for older engines. some of the newer stuff (honda crf450 springs to mind) runs 12.5:1 compression but it must take a lot of work on the ECU to get it to run well without detonating. does your head hurt yet, cos I need a beer  |
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Post by marktrower on Mar 14, 2023 20:09:22 GMT
no1 the world does not evolve around the uk,ethanol as been around since the internal combustion engine in fact thats what they were designed to run on it was the government's around the world desire to tax alcohol that petrol came in to being .lots of countries from the early 70s have E fuel mix some up to E50.last year the superdream ran very well on e10 so did my triumph t150 my HD dyna my bsa a10 and every other bike i put petrol in and there are all still here and not dissolved into a gooey mush.all my bikes have E compliance fuel lines and carb kits fitted and this year i will run them on the same fuel.i will stick to the old way of getting ethanol riding my bike and letting the engine do it
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Mar 14, 2023 22:15:20 GMT
So is the conclusion just run with either E5 or E10 without any issues and no significant benefit in trying to get the ethanol out?
Mark, not sure what you mean by e compliant carb kits...what parts do you mean, jets? Not heard of these.
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E10 fuel
Mar 15, 2023 6:48:01 GMT
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Post by BritPete on Mar 15, 2023 6:48:01 GMT
I think the ethanol deteriorates the rubber seals etc
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Post by marktrower on Mar 15, 2023 10:30:09 GMT
Sorry should have gone into more detail e fuel is not good with fuel lines as most fuel lines sold over the years were just plastic pipe and the o rings and rubber seals in carbs .genuine components you will have no issues with .that's why only get new parts from established sellers and pay that bit more. The main problem with fuel it does not like standing around doing nothing and that's all fuel .that's the reason why the left side lower of your superdream tank rots out and the carbs block up
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Post by alfie on Mar 16, 2023 8:57:56 GMT
The federation of british historic vehicle clubs lay e10 fuel problems on the line.....explains in detail how E10 fuel damages (not 'can' damage) your bikes
Latest News
Our fuels specialist Nigel Elliott has received some new questions with regards to ethanol and the use of E10 in historic vehicles and his thoughts are as follows:
Further advice on ethanol with respect to fuel additives.
Ethanol and aftermarket fuel additives
There are three key areas of concern with Ethanol compatibility with historic and classic vehicle fuel systems:
Corrosion of metal components
Elastomer compatibility - swelling, shrinking and cracking of elastomers (seals and flexible pipes) and other unsuitable gasket materials
Air/fuel ratio enleanment
Corrosion of metal components
Ethanol has increased acidity, conductivity and inorganic chloride content when compared to conventional petrol which is essentially neutral and can cause corrosion and tarnishing of metal components under certain conditions. These characteristics are controlled in the ethanol used to blend E5 and E10 European and UK petrol by the ethanol fuel specification BS EN15376 in order to help limit corrosion.
Corrosion inhibitor additives can be very effective in controlling ethanol derived corrosion and are recommended to be added to ethanol in the BS EN15376 standard. It is not clear if corrosion inhibitors are universally added to ethanol for E5 and E10 blending so as an additional precaution it is recommended that aftermarket corrosion inhibitor additives are added to E5 and E10 petrol.
These aftermarket ethanol corrosion inhibitor additives often called ethanol compatibility additives are usually combined with a metallic valve recession additive (VSR) and sometimes an octane booster and have been found to provide good protection against metal corrosion in historic and classic vehicle fuel systems.
Elastomer compatibility
As the ethanol molecule is smaller and more polar than conventional petrol components, there is a lower energy barrier for ethanol to diffuse into elastomer materials. When exposed to petrol/ethanol blends these materials will swell and soften, resulting in a weakening of the elastomer structure. On drying out they can shrink and crack resulting in fuel leaks.
Some aftermarket ethanol compatibility additives claim complete protection for operating historic and classic vehicles on E10 petrol. The FBHVC is not aware of, or has tested any additives that claim complete fuel system protection with respect to elastomer and gasket materials for use with E10 petrol. The FBHVC therefore recommends that elastomer and gasket materials are replaced with ethanol compatible materials before operation on E10 petrol.
Air/fuel ratio enleanment
Ethanol contains approximately 35% oxygen by weight and will therefore result in fuel mixture enleanment when blended into petrol. Petrol containing 10% ethanol for example, would result in a mixture-leaning effect equivalent to approximately 2.6%, which may be felt as a power loss, driveability issues (hesitations, flat spots, stalling), but also could contribute to slightly hotter running. Adjusting mixture strength (enrichment) to counter this problem is advised to maintain performance, driveability and protect the engine from overheating and knock at high loads.
Modern 3-way catalyst equipped vehicles do not require mixture adjustment to operate on E10 petrol because they are equipped with oxygen (lambda) sensors that detect lean operation and the engine management system automatically corrects the fuel mixture for optimum catalyst and vehicle operation.
Operating classic and historic vehicles on E10 petrol
If you should decide to make the necessary vehicle fuel system modifications together with the addition of an aftermarket additive to operate your classic or historic vehicle on E10 petrol. The FBHVC strongly recommends that you regularly check the condition of the vehicle fuel system for elastomer and gasket material deterioration and metallic components such as fuel tanks, fuel lines and carburettors for corrosion. Some plastic components such as carburettor floats and fuel filter housings may be become discoloured over time. Plastic carburettor float buoyancy can also be affected by ethanol and carburettors should be checked to ensure that float levels are not adversely affected causing flooding and fuel leaks.
Ethanol is a good solvent and can remove historic fuel system deposits from fuel tanks and lines and it is advisable to check fuel filters regularly after the switch to E10 petrol as they may become blocked or restricted. If your vehicle is to be laid up for an extended period of time, it is recommended that the E10 petrol be replaced with ethanol free petrol which is available from some fuel suppliers. Do not leave fuel systems dry, as this can result corrosion and the shrinking and cracking of elastomers and gaskets as they dry out.
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